Debate between Jamshed Iqbal and Ali Sina

14 Apr

Dear Ali Sina,

Having come to know about your challenge to Mr. Zakir Naik and other Muslim scholars, I accept your challenge of  providing you  rational/ logical and psycho-philosophical insights to prove Mohammad’s (pbuh) genuin oneness with supreme reality and prophethood  through debate!

I accept your challenge for once, I too, used to think like you! Therefore, I know well that Mr. Zakir Naik could not answer your questions for he himslef is, what Bacon would call , ” an idol of a cave” that have no existance outside his forced abode! 

Morever, I would also offer you some post-modern scientific, sociological, psychological and anthropological insights (to be weighed and considered) as well so that you could see the things in totality! The debate would be published on some blogs, including yours, to have wider public attention, feedback to value your (or mine) arguments in exchange.

 I would eagerly wait for your kind mail! 

Sincere,
Jamshed Iqbal

 

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Dear Ali Sina,

Thanks for your prompt response! It shows your passion and desire to engage in debate! It is a healthy sign if the debate, as well, is going to be healthy one!

Well, I had cc-ed my previous mail to Indian Muslim Blog and Sunni News and Blog in Delhi. I am hopeful that they would readily publish our debate. However, some of the publishers, in Pakistan & NL would also be interested as they have been publishing my works previously! I will get the debate published after we have reached some conclusion!

You asked for my bio-date:

Well, I have been teaching English Literature and Western Philosophy in some universities. Moreover, I think, I pondered seriously on the conditions and questions of human life on this solitary hospitable planet. Peaceful coexistence of human family has been my main concerns of thought and writings. For last few years, I am working on Encyclopedia of Western Thought with the , so-called, oriental viewpoint. The encyclopedia is going to come out next year. 

Moreover, before proceeding, we must settle some norms for our debate. I think, it should not be just point-scoring or ego-strutting! We, as  members of human family and meaning-seeking creatures, would try to solve the puzzle of our existence with some perennial and ever-fresh questions before us……..  

I heartily wish you best of luck!

Sincere,

Jamshed Iqbal 
 

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 Dear Jamshed Iqbal

I don’t know how many of my articles you have read. If you read enough you’d know that the reason I think Islam must go is because it is a doctrine that does not allow peaceful co-existance.

Let us say there is a religion with the following teachings. Do you think you can have any peaceful co-existence with the followers of that religion?

We will cast terror into the hearts of Muslims. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. 8:12
Let not the non-Muslims take for friends or helpers the Muslims. 3:28,
Rouse the non-Muslims to the fight against Muslims.
8:65,
Then fight and slay the Muslims wherever ye find them,
9:5,
Fight the Muslims, and God will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame.
9:14 ,
O ye the non-Muslims take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love Islam.
9:23,
O ye the non-Muslims! Truly the Muslims are unclean.
9:28,
O ye non-Muslims! fight the Muslims who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you.
9:123,
Therefore, when ye meet the Muslims, smite at their necks; At length.
47:4,

I hope you agree that such religion has no right to exist, that its followers must be re-educated or if they persist they should be separated from the rest of mankind to maintain peace.

Anyway, I have had many debates with Muslims who at first were confident that they know more and they can easily prove me wrong. The strength of their faith (which is a vice and not a virtue) was no substitute to the strength of their argument.

For more than a decade I have debated thousands of Muslims. I assure you there is no argument that has not been discussed already. Repetition of the same is not exciting. So I require those who wish to debate with me, to at least familiarize themselves with my arguments.

I suggest you read my book first and only after you know my views we should engage in debate. I know your views. There is nothing in Islam that I do not know. I was born a Muslim and studied it thoroughly.  I am among very few people who understand Islam. This does not mean I have more knowledge about every detail of Islam. But I understand Islam and Muhammad better than most people and all the Muslims.

So I request that you read my book first. If then you think you have found some flaws in my arguments, I would be glad to listen to you. If you want to tell me things that I have already discussed, there is no point in debating. All you have to do is read more and you will get your answer.

Are you willing to read my book? I don’t want you to buy it. I will send it to you as ebook. A lot of people who read my book left Islam as the result. You may also end up doing the same. By the time you reach half of the book you’ll start doubting everything you were told about Islam and by the time you finish it you will no longer call yourself a Muslim.
However, if any of the sites you sent the Cc of this email agree to publish our debate right from the start as it proceeds, I would drop that requirement and will debate with you right way. This would make the debate a lot more interesting because the end result will not be known until the very end. Since you are confident that Islam has all the answers, I am sure you’d all welcome my proposal. I am willing to publish our debate as it proceeds.
Regards
Ali Sina .
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 2009/3/14 (18.25)

Thank you for publishing our debate. I would be more than glad to take part in this discussion. Now how can we proceed? You can just write a rebuttal to one of my claims. Or you can answer the question that I asked above. I quoted a few verses from the sacred book of a new religion called Malsi. As you can see this faith teaches Muslims are filthy, they should be killed, they are fuel for hell, they are pigs and monkeys, and it encourages its followers to fight against the Muslims, strike their heads and be very harsh with them. Ironically, the Malsians, the followers of Malsi claim their religion promotes peace and they want peaceful co-existence with Muslims. I would like you to instruct me how to respond to these people? I tell them if they want peaceful co-existence they should purge their holy book from all those evil teachings. What I quoted is just the tip of the iceberg. Wait until you read the book. It is full of hate against Muslims. Many Malsians, following the teachings of their prophet, are constantly killing Muslims, burning the mosques have no mercy even on Muslim children. Other Malsians however, repeat ad nauseam that Malsi Faith is a beautiful religion of peace and that it is misunderstood. What do you think we should tell these people? Don’t you agree that they are misguided at best and evil at worst, that their faith is false and they need to be weaned from their faith of hate? Do you think Muslims can have any peaceful co-existence with Malsians while they hold their book of hate and terror sacrosanct? All the best Ali

Hello Mr. Jamshed Iqbal,

Will you kindly send me your bio and let me know which blog will publish our debate?

Best Regards

Ali Sina   

 

Deare Ali Sina,

 

Please remember, I accepted your debate challenge:

§  To prove Mohammad’s (pbuh) genuine oneness with Supreme Reality  &

§  Reality of his prophetic experience! (plz go through my previous message)

 

It meant that my position, in the debate was supposed to be affirmative one, and yours, the other way round. The other point I made clear was that:

 

§  It should not be just point-scoring or ego-strutting! &


§  We, as members of human family and meaning-seeking creatures, would try to solve the puzzle of our existence with some perennial and ever-fresh questions before us……..

Let me clear you certain points. Problem of the prophet-hood is the question of means, sources and ends of knowledge—the question of epistemology in scholarly terms. Here you were supposed to announce your “position” by clearing, what according to you distinguishes adequate knowledge from inadequate (false) knowledge To lay the basis of your conclusion that Mohammad (pbuh) was ***—**** (nauzu billah).   You would have to choose one position among some possibilities:

§  Putting more emphasis on logical and empirical methods, stressing that knowledge is an apprehension of necessary and universal principles. (causal determinism, empirical materialism: Aristotelian position)

§  You had other option to declare that, ” knowledge is merely an awareness of absolute, universal Ideas or Forms, existing independent of any subject trying to apprehend to them” (Idealism: Platonic position)

§  Knowledge is the product of sensory perception, and rationalism which sees it as the product of rational reflection (Post-renaissance scientific empiricism)

§  Knowledge results from a kind of mapping or reflection of external objects, through our sensory organs, possibly aided by different observation instruments, to our brain or mind. (reflection-correspondence theory: if you adopted that position you would have to enter into the mazy realm of language and its relation to reality towards Structuralism & Post structuralism)

§  Knowledge is an empirical statement which comes from analytical truth (Comte’s position: Logical Positivism)

Please, honestly, go through my last messages and see if you had any understanding of my position I declared in the very first message! Please see clearly if you have any understanding of your own position! What you put forward is quite irrelevant at this stage. For:

§  We were to see the issue in light of some perennial and ever-fresh questions (see my first message wherein I discussed about the norms)

What are these perennial questions? The “umbrella question” is “what is truth”. All the branches of sciences and philosophy, in some way or other, have this one question before them.  Human beings responded their impulse to know the truth in four distinctive ways:

1.       Mythmaking (with the aid of imagination of symbolism)

2.       Philosophy (with the aid of reason)

3.       Science (Analysis and apparatus)

4.       Religion (empathy and intuition)

 I am sorry my friend you have even no idea as what the debate is about! What areas of knowledge or disciplines our debate falls in! or even how to debate on these issues!  

You were right in inviting Mr. Zakir Naik for he was your good match! And your whole knowledge abut Islam is based on the understandings of Zakir Naiks! You have never been fortunate enough to see those who live Islam or those who found Islam!

 You and Zakir Naiks are, in principle, sailing in the same boat—they do not know what they are defending and you don’t know what you are criticizing! Both of you are perspective-less—but perspective is everything!

It goes without saying that you have never bothered to ponder upon these problems quite seriously. Please ask yourself this question in some honest moment!  Or you left them for they were far beyond your observational understanding badly entangled somewhere else? So your intellect remained dormant (it tells)—and it was entangled in minor things—in phenomenal world or appearance that is always deceptive!

I am sorry my friend, you have lost the debate before it started! However, I am giving you thirty years’ grace period to let your intellect ripe! To let these perennial questions pinch  the sleep from your eyes and pinch rest from your soul—to let your bones melt in pangs of wonder and doubt until you get a peace of truth within you! I pray for that peace for you!  

I would salute your honestly if you publish this comment on your blog as well! I would even acknowledge your integrity if you stop challenging Muslim scholars for debate! I would even adore you as a friend if you, honestly, rub out from your heart the prejudice that is product of your myopic understanding!  I assure you Mohammad (pbuh) is lovingly offering you a priceless treasure but you are refusing it for your gaze is tenaciously fixed on filth! And one is there where one’s gaze rests!

  
        I have nothing more to say. I will debate when you are ripe! For its question to save the humanity!  

       Sincere,

   Jamshed Iqbal

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Updated

2009/04/16  (8:10)

  Dear Jamshed Iqbal,

Please remember that it was you who accepted my challenge. Did you read it before accepting it? My challenge is simple and clear. I have stated that Muhammad was not a prophet of God . I have also laid a series of charges against that man that disqualify him as a good man let alone a prophet.  You said “I accept your challenge” and promised to provide “rational/ logical and psycho-philosophical insights to prove Mohammad’s (pbuh) genuine oneness with supreme reality and prophethood through debate!”

To put it in a simple language, you said you would provide proof that Muhammad was a true messenger of God. I’d love to hear that proof. Where is it?  

I asked you a simple question.  The question is how can a man****  Muhammad claimed to be the best of the creation and a perfect example to follow.  Were his actions exemplary? They were not. So how can such a man guide mankind to good deeds.

You want to discuss epistemology. Who cares whether knowledge is an apprehension of universal principles, an awareness of absolute, a product of sensory perception, or the result of analytical reflection?

Whatever the nature of knowledge, it does not diminish the abhorrence of the acts of Muhammad. It cannot also justify the absurdities of the Quran.  Muslims are killing innocent people everywhere. Since 9/11 there have been over 12000 terrorist attacks. That is an average of five per day. People die as the result. And you want to talk about epistemology?  This is red herring. What the hell does the nature of truth has to do with the fact that Muslims are terrorists?  

Okay, so my intellect is dormant. Can you please awaken it by telling us how your questions on epistemology change the  verses of the Quran? I did ponder on these questions Sir. But they have nothing to do with the claim of Muhammad. They are intellectual musings, luxuries allowed to those who live in freedom, something Islam wants to take away.

Islam promotes ignorance. Because of Islam Muslims cannot progress. They are filled with hatred of everyone and want to kill and destroy. They are reduced into beasts. Yes beasts. If one has no empathy for other humans, he is a beast and not a human.  Now these beasts have atomic bomb. As the result the world has become powder keg. Mankind has never been more in danger of extinction as it is today. So much stupidity and hatred is thought in the madrassas of Pakistan that that country is about to fall in the hands of the Taliban any time. When that happens, it would be the end. It won’t be just non-Muslims who will die, Pakistan and Iran will be obliterated. And you want to talk about epistemology?     

In your second email you wrote “I pondered seriously on the conditions and questions of human life on this solitary hospitable planet. Peaceful coexistence of human family has been my main concerns of thought and writings.”

What do you think is threatening the peaceful coexistence of human family? Is it because people don’t agree on the nature of knowledge or is it because a fifth of people follow a man who told them kill the disbelievers wherever you find them (2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (9:123), fight with them (8:65 ), strive against them with great endeavor (25:52), be stern with them because they belong to hell (66:9) and strike off their heads; then after making a “wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives” for ransom (47:4)?

Were those men who hijacked four planes and  killed 3000 innocent people angry because their victims did not know that “knowledge is merely an awareness of absolute,” or did they do it because their prophet told them slay the unbelievers(9:5), no other religion but Islam  is accepted (3:85), the unbelievers are  najis  (9:28), so fight them and kill them until no other religion except Islam is left (2:193)?

Dear Jamhed, what you call “peace of truth,” is peace of ignorance.  I quote the young AlwaysAisha who explains this eloquently. She wrote, “After my conversion, I felt a sense of peace and happiness that I had never before experienced in my life, and hope to never experience again. This was the peace that came with knowing with full certainty that I was in the right path. Knowing that there was a Creator who was watching over me and who had a plan for me. Knowing that He had in his infinite mercy bestowed me with the Qur’an, an instruction manual for life so that from now on I could always know the right choice and be certain of my decisions. Knowing that earthly problems did not matter at all, because this life would eventually be over and then I could look forward to paradise.”

She came to her senses and realized that this peace was gained through numbing her senses and silencing her intelligence. Shun this peace. Today you are alive; you must be inquisitive and learn. A time will come when your heart will no longer beat and your mind will be at peace, but until then avoid that peace like a plague. Bertrand Russell said, “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” The certainty and peace you attain through faith is the certainty of foolishness.  

I did publish all your emails. I see the Islamic site http://www.sunninews.co.cc/ where our debate was publish is not accessible. I hope it is a tecnical problem and that page will be back with the new addition. Please also provide the link to this pagehttp://www.faithfreedom.org/2009/04/14/jamshed-iqbal-vs-ali-sina/

 See the science that Muhammad brought to the world.http://www.youtube.com

This is the 21st century and these educated Muslims believe the Earth is flat because the Quran says so and the Quran cannot be wrong.

This is the sad reality of the Ummah. 

 

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2009/04/16 (19:17)

One of our friends, Fisk wrote to Mr. Jamshed Iqbal and got the following response. (see comment # 92)

92. Fisk Says:
April 16th, 2009 at 7:00 pm e

Greetings to all.

Earlier today I wrote to Jamshed Iqbal, and to my surprise he wrote back. Here is our exchange:

On 16/04/2009, Bill Fisk wrote:

Dear Mr Iqbal

I have just read the final installment of your debate with Ali Sina, and I would like to ask you a question.

Mr Sina opened the debate with a very simple argument, which was to posit a fictional religion whose principal tenets were the hatred, vilification and persecution of Muslims. His question then was, What would you think of such a religion and what would you say to its followers?

What is it about this simple question that you find so difficult?

I notice that you claim to have won the debate, when it is clear to everyone that you didn’t even trouble to take part in it.

Yours
Fisk

Reply:
Dearest Fisk,

It was in fact a cross question to avoid real question! The real question was about the condition of Enlightenment and genuine prophetic/spiritual experience. I just asked him to declare his position (atheist, agnostic or what???) but he is beating about the bush! His was not a question but an evasive technique.

He wants others to run on the track he is habitual to run on…One who does not even know what to talk about….and what not and how….Whose position is only hatred…and, ironically, he claims to fight against hatred!

What he is doing is just point scoring or showing is only ego-defensive attitude! May be to his loyality to his funders at the cost of being faithful to humanity at large! At the cost of our hospitable home—the earth! This is the common problem with Charlatans or hate-mongers…
I request you to make him declare his position……so that we could go ahead! And please advice him to move away from puffed cliches! This is the matter of life of human family….this is the matter of upcoming innocent angels……not a joke!

The issue we are to decide collectively (as human beings) is locating the source of violence! He says, they are Muslims… is not it a sweeping generalization..and logically speaking…these kinds of generalizations are always wrong! They make healthy debate impossible! Violence is “shared characteristic” of human kind….it is the product of id….it is what we learnt from caves and tribes! We, humans, are basically cave or tribal species! and to be civilized human, one needs to surpass id.And Religion (I am not talking about only Islam…Islam is one of the religions) was, actually, a device to drive it away from within!

I would request you express your comments on his site for it would become difficult for me to answer hundreds of friends…you wrote and thought it improper not to answer you!

Sincerely yours,

Jamshed Iqbal

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2009/04/16  (20:37)

 

Hello Jamshed.

You say I avoided the real question, which was “the condition of Enlightenment and genuine prophetic/spiritual experience.”

I am the one who posed the question and challenged Muslims to answer me. You are the one who accepted that challenge. It is you who has to answer my question and not the other way round. 

So you want to talk about the “condition of Enlightenment and genuine prophetic/spiritual experience.” What would that prove? Would it prove that Muhammad was a real prophet of God.Please go ahead and prove it. Give me one solid irrefutable evidence that this man was not making things up, and what he said can be proven to be truthful and without resorting to logical fallacies. 

If you can provide that proof, I will drop all my charges against him.  

Let us say that you can prove Muhammad knew things no one knew. (I heard a lot of such claims, such as the Quran is a mathematical wonder or it has foretold about all the inventions and discoveries. All of them are wishful thinking of Muslims with wild imagination.) Does that prove that that knowledge came from God? 

This question is important. The answer lies in the deeds of Muhammad.  So assuming you prove Muhammad had extraordinary powers, you still have not proven that he was indeed a prophet of God. 

However, let us not even go there because there is no proof that Muhammad had any knowledge that ordinary men of his time did not have. 

 

However, if it is important, and you can’t prove the truth of Muhammad without knowing my position, let me make it simple for you. For the sake of argument I accept whatever is your definition of God. I even agree that Allah, the same deity that was worshipped by the Meccans prior to Muhammad, and the same god that sent Jesus, as Muhammad claimed, is the real God.  Now I want you to prove that Muhammad was a messenger of this Allah. Please provide evidence that he did not make up the whole thing to fool the gullible and make them wage war for him and make him rich and powerful.

I am not asking you to prove God. I even recite the first part of shahadah. Ashhado in la ilah illa Allah. Happy? Now please prove that Muhammad was Rasool Allah.

You keep talking about humanity and the need for peaceful co-existence while at the same time you believe in a book that calls for the massacre of all non-Muslims and the submission and subjugation of all mankind.  There is a cognitive dissonance between what you profess with your mouth and what you actually believe as your faith. How can you talk of peaceful co-existence when you think words such as “the unbelievers are filthy, the Jews are pigs, the non-Muslims are the worst creatures in the sight of Allah, slay them wherever you find them,” are divine teachings?

Can you have peaceful co-existence with the Malsians whose sacred book mirrors the Quran and incites hatred against the Muslims?  You did not answer this question? Would you say that Malsi religion is a peaceful religion?   

No! Violence is NOT“shared characteristic” of humankind. People become violent when exposed to violent teachings. Yes, violence dose also have psychological components, such as greed, envy, anger, etc. all byproducts of low self-esteem. However, crowds have a psychology of their own and they can become violent through external influences.  We do not expect to see violent behavior among a crowd coming out of a church, a synagogue, a Hindu or a Buddhist temple, or a Zoroastrian or a Baha’i gathering. But if I see a crowd coming out of a mosque towards me, I will run as fast as I can.  

Non violent people can become violent when they believe in violent teachings. If religion had no effect in how we humans behave, then what is the point of having religion at all? The very purpose of religion is to influence people and make them do things their way.  If their way is peaceful, the believers are likely to behave peacefully and if it is violent, the believers will act violently.

Let us hear now what proof you can present to make us believe that Muhammad was a genuine, prophet.

 

Moderator-

Many of the Lines of Ali Sina were deleted due to abusive and filthy language.I  kept the post for the sake of Neutrality.

 

29 Responses to “Debate between Jamshed Iqbal and Ali Sina”

  1. A. Kaafir April 15, 2009 at 9:01 pm #

    Jamshed Iqbal: “Well, I have been teaching English Literature and Western Philosophy in some universities. Moreover, I think, I pondered seriously on the conditions and questions of human life on this solitary hospitable planet. Peaceful coexistence of human family has been my main concerns of thought and writings. For last few years, I am working on Encyclopedia of Western Thought with the , so-called, oriental viewpoint. The encyclopedia is going to come out next year.”

    It is not necessary but it would be helpful if you provided a bit more information like “some universities” means what? Which Universities and what courses would be nice backgrounder. If not then perhaps some publications or analysis done previously. The Encyclopedia is going to come out next year … who is the publisher and is it possible to get a preview of anything from that Encyclopedia? A preview would be an extremely good substitute for the lack of specifics in the biodata.

    • sharbat ali April 28, 2013 at 1:52 pm #

      A. Kaafir
      I noticed jamshed’s not responded to your questions.

      I get a kick out of Jamshed’s “some universities” bit. The universities Jamshed’s referring to must’ve been those institutions of higher learning that jealously guard, from prying eyes of the uneducated would-be co-eds, their Islamic scientific findings.Good heavens Islam’s an enigmas.

  2. miles2Go April 15, 2009 at 9:30 pm #

    I hope this debate will be interesting. Looking forward to it. Though I think… debate cannot be the ultimate test for proving what is true or what is false, time is also not ultimate. Its probably just HOW we see more than WHAT we see actually.

  3. Reader April 16, 2009 at 3:57 am #

    His name is Ali Sina, not Ibn Sina! Even ‘Ali Sina’ is his fake name.

  4. hassan April 16, 2009 at 2:14 pm #

    Hi,

    As we can see this is not the complete debate that took place between Mr Ali Sina and Mr Jamshed, in order to complete the debate and to see how stupid and coward Mr Jamshed is, go to http://www.faithfreedom.org

    You’ll notice that Mr Jamshed is not courageous enough to face Mr Ali sina challenges, instead he redirected the debate into some stupid discussion about epistemology and the meaning of truth.

  5. Eagle April 16, 2009 at 3:30 pm #

    Ali Sina rocks as always! I hope to see an intersting debate between Ali and Iqbal.

    BTW: The name is Ali Sina and not Ibn Sina so kindly have this corrected.

  6. Sher-e-Ghousia April 16, 2009 at 8:21 pm #

    Shahnawaz Warsi Sahib, such topics will require caution when moderating. If the past to something to go by, there may be many spam posts be A Sina fans/affiliates here attacking our beautiful religion and promoting the coward A Sina.

    • Sharbat ali May 9, 2013 at 11:49 pm #

      Ali Sina gives you nightmares doesn’t ‘t he Sher-e-Ghousia sahib?easiest cure for the nightmare is to bring Jamshed sahib back and have him prove Muhammad(pbuh) is a messenger of Allah.Untold tomes have been penned by believers yet Ali Sina’a simple uttered premise- prove Muhammad was a true messenger- shakes the true religion to its core! Why would Ali Sina’s lying so trouble the true religion’s adherents?.

  7. Trevor April 16, 2009 at 9:39 pm #

    I’m sorry but having read the website of Mr. Sina it doesn’t seem to me that Mr. Jamshed is even trying to debate the challenge that Ali Sina lays down. The challenge is to prove him wrong, in written debate, any one of about a dozen charges against Mohammed. Among these charges are that Mohammed is a looter, a terrorist, a pedophile, and an assassin: to name a few. Mr. Jamshed did not even begin to address these things.

    The debate is NOT about epistemology or the ‘meaning of truth’ or any metaphysical question. Had Mr. Jamshed actually read the website challenge he would know that the real debate (as posted on Mr. Sina’s site) can be neatly summarized as, be it resolved that Mohammed was a pedophile. Seems to be a pretty straight-forward question. Now have at it.

  8. Busterg April 17, 2009 at 4:33 am #

    I am disappointed that Jamshed withdrew from a debate before it began.

    It appears that Jamshed is so steeped in sufi islam that he is blissfully

    unaware of what quran teaches.

  9. Kemal April 17, 2009 at 1:33 pm #

    The last part of the responce from Ali Sina
    http://www.faithfreedom.org/2009/04/16/jamshed-iqbal-vs-ali-sina/

  10. Shahnawaz warsi April 17, 2009 at 2:24 pm #

    Sher-e Ghousia
    You are correct.
    I will be more attentive in future.
    I was thinking that debate will be among two civilized person but A Sina is not worthy of calling a Person.

    keep commenting here.

  11. Trevor April 17, 2009 at 9:12 pm #

    I have been following the ‘debate’, if you can call the sorry excuse of discussion that Jamshed uses ‘debate’.

    I don’t see Ali Sina using any abusive or filthy language. Is this just an example of disinformation in order to portray Ali Sina in a bad light and prevent people from going onto his site and reading and thinking for themselves?

    Please, I am only an infidel. Is Ali Sina right?; Since Mr. Jamshed has abandoned the field of the debate, then it can only be surmised that Mr. Sina has won.

    It appears to me that Mr. Jamshed has surrendered . If we’re wrong, then please educate us by engaging Mr. Sina in an honest debate about the topic.

  12. hamid April 18, 2009 at 4:44 am #

    is this what you call a debate, mr. iqbal’s response was full of fallacies which were irrelevant to the topic. ali sina’s spiritual or sexual oreintation has got nothing to do with muhammad’s prophethood or the lack of it.
    the acusations have been there on FFI since a very long time and all Mr. Jamshed could do is build a few strawman arguments.
    Some debate huh

  13. Saadiq Muhammad April 21, 2009 at 5:54 pm #

    I have debated with Ali Sina and have defeated him so badly, he refuses to even speak to me. I have the whole debate documented and will be more than happy to publish it here so people can see the lying, hypocrite, self contradicting Ali Sina. He is cunning and employs many deceitful tactics. I was able to expose these things in him. go to http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/group.php?gid=79594037526 to view the debate and related articles i have written

  14. moeza arian April 21, 2009 at 7:38 pm #

    ABUSIVE language ??? FILTHY ??? Where ???

    We read the original post on Ali Sina

    FaithFreedom.ORG
    and looks like you did not like what you read. Sometimes the reality shakes your ground ! You don’t have to delete what you don’t get yourself to agree with… Or more !

  15. abutufail August 5, 2009 at 5:53 pm #

    ali sina, i am challege you prove 1 error in quran
    and make the varses like quran , you cont do this,
    than ready to go in hell ,which is made by stone and human(ali-sina)

  16. kafir ali sina August 5, 2009 at 5:59 pm #

    Here are some of the verses from the Quran pointing to the “True Religion”, the presence of His Light and Grace, the presence of the Living Imam at all times, as is the theme in my website.
    The following list is incomplete as I have put it up prematurely, in response to an entry to my guestbook today.

    However, composing this page was a very pleasant exercise for me as I was able to reconfirm the many references from the Holy Quran all pointing to the Guide of the Age, our present Imam Mowlana Shah Karim Al-Husayni, His Highness the Aga Khan, the direct descendent of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) through his daughter, Fatima and cousin and son-in-law, Hazrat Ali (may Allah be pleased with him).

    ——————————————————————————–

    In the Holy Quran Allah says not to mock anyone’s religion as they may revile Allah in return.
    Over the 49 generations of the Holy Imams, Ismailis have practiced their belief with the above guiding principle and with maintenance of their dignity. When faced with rejection of our tenets, I choose to point to another verse from the Quran:

    The Disbelievers 109.006 (translations)
    YUSUFALI: To you be your Way, and to me mine.
    PICKTHAL: Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
    SHAKIR: You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.

    and

    002.256
    YUSUFALI: Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
    PICKTHAL: There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.
    SHAKIR: There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

    ——————————————————————————–

    Not only in the above verse but throughout the Quran, are messages from Allah to follow the Light of Allah, to remain fast to the Hablillah (the Rope of Allah), etc. The following are a just a few of the verses that I was able to quickly gather together with the same flavor, and Inshallah, soon I’ll add to this wonderful collection.

    ——————————————————————————–

    The Light [24.55]
    Allah has promised to those of you who believe and do good that He will most certainly make them rulers in the earth as He made rulers those before them, and that He will most certainly establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them, and that He will most certainly, after their fear, give them security in exchange; they shall serve Me, not associating aught with Me; and whoever is ungrateful after this, these it is who are the. transgressors.
    — [3.19] Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam, and those to whom the Book had been given did not show opposition but after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves; and whoever disbelieves in the communications of Allah then surely Allah is quick in reckoning.

    — [3.72] And a party of the followers of the Book say: Avow belief in that which has been revealed to those who believe, in the first part of the day, and disbelieve at the end of it, perhaps they go back on their religion.

    [3.73] And do not believe but in him who follows your religion. Say: Surely the (true) guidance is the guidance of Allah– that one may be given (by Him) the like of what you were given; or they would contend with you by an argument before your Lord. Say: Surely grace is in the hand of Allah, He gives it to whom He pleases; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.

    — [4.125] And who has a better religion than he who submits himself entirely to Allah? And he is the doer of good (to others) and follows the faith of Ibrahim, the upright one, and Allah took Ibrahim as a friend.

    [4.146] Except those who repent and amend and hold fast to Allah and are sincere in their religion to Allah, these are with the believers, and Allah will grant the believers a mighty reward.

    — [5.54] O you who believe! whoever from among you turns back from his religion, then Allah will bring a people, He shall love them and they shall love Him, lowly before the believers, mighty against the unbelievers, they shall strive hard in Allah’s way and shall not fear the censure of any censurer; this is Allah’s Face, He gives it to whom He pleases, and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.

    [5.57] O you who believe! do not take for guardians those who take your religion for a mockery and a joke, from among those who were given the Book before you and the unbelievers; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah if you are believers.

    [5.77] Say: O followers of the Book! be not unduly immoderate in your religion, and do not follow the low desires of people who went astray before and led many astray and went astray from the right path.

    — [7.51] Who take their religion for an idle sport and a play and this life’s world deceives them; so today We forsake them, as they neglected the meeting of this day of theirs and as they denied Our communications.

    [7.89] Indeed we shall have forged a lie against Allah If we go back to your religion after Allah has delivered us from It, and it befits us not that we should go back to it, except if Allah our Lord please: Our Lord comprehends all things :n His knowledge; in Allah do we trust: Our Lord! decide between us and our people with truth; and Thou art the best of deciders.

    — [9.33] He it is Who sent His Apostle with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions, though the polytheists may be averse.

    — [12.38] And I follow the religion of my fathers, Ibrahim and Ishaq and Yaqoub; it beseems us not that we should associate aught with Allah; this is by Allah’s grace upon us and on mankind, but most people do not give thanks.

    [12.40] You do not serve besides Him but names which you have named, you and your fathers; Allah has not sent down any authority for them; judgment is only Allah’s; He has commanded that you shall not serve aught but Him; this is the right religion but most people do not know.

    — [22.78] And strive hard in (the way of) Allah, (such) a striving a is due to Him; He has chosen you and has not laid upon you an hardship in religion; the faith of your father Ibrahim; He named you Muslims before and in this, that the Apostle may be a bearer of witness to you, and you may be bearers of witness to the people; therefore keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and hold fast by Allah; He is your Guardian; how excellent the Guardian and how excellent the Helper!

    — [23.52] And surely this your religion is one religion and I am your Lord, therefore be careful (of your duty) to Me.

    [23.53] But they cut off their religion among themselves into sects, each part rejoicing in that which is with them.

    — [30.43] Then turn thy face straight to the right religion before there come from Allah the day which cannot be averted; on that day they shall become separated.

    — [42.13] He has made plain to you of the religion what He enjoined upon Nuh and that which We have revealed to you and that which We enjoined upon Ibrahim and Musa and Isa that keep to obedience and be not divided therein; hard to the unbelievers is that which you call them to; Allah chooses for Himself whom He pleases, and guides to Himself him who turns (to Him), frequently.

    The Victory [48.28]
    He it is Who sent His Apostle with the guidance and the true religion that He may make it prevail over all the religions; and Allah is enough for a witness.

    The Ranks [61.9]
    He it is Who sent His Apostle with the guidance and the true religion, that He may make it overcome the religions, all of them, though the polytheists may be averse.

  17. habib October 11, 2009 at 4:52 am #

    The Islamic history is full of such misguiding evil genious people who tried to move away the Muslims from their faith. All their efforts were futile. The Muslims need not worry about such misguiding people. There are 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. Depite mass massacres in Iraq and Afghanistan, the growth rate of the Muslims will never decline.

  18. Mohammed Mateen Maniyar October 16, 2009 at 2:46 am #

    Salam.

    I am sure faithfreedom.org uses fake names. They aren’t Muslims, nor they were!
    If we check their WhoIs info, we can find that it is registered by someone Non-Muslim. Below is faithfreedom.org’s whois info:-

    Registrant Name:Ross Behan
    Registrant Organization:Faithfreedom International
    Registrant Street1:P.O. Box 5115
    Registrant Street2:
    Registrant Street3:
    Registrant City:Port Hardy
    Registrant State/Province:BC
    Registrant Postal Code:V0N 2P0
    Registrant Country:CA
    Registrant Phone:+44.02081331820
    Registrant Phone Ext.:
    Registrant FAX:+44.02081331820

    Just have a look at it, the address is from California and the contact number and FAX number belongs to the UK!!

  19. Metamorhpizuszed7 April 3, 2012 at 2:55 pm #

    Violence IS a shared characteristic of mankind. War is the essence of nature, the struggle of nature personification in war. War is beautiful. Domination rules. FORCE RULES THE UNIVERSE!!!! Not peace or co existence. Such lunacy lies for the feint hearted. Adolf Hitler spoke of such truth.

    I hate Islam too, I find it disgusting and repulsive. But to reject war is a rejection of instinct to dominate. Its in our blood. Struggle is the key to the realm of nature.

  20. savad k April 23, 2012 at 8:00 am #

    ali sina is a dajjaal(l a),,,,

    He was not a muslim,,,he is trying to make trouble in our hear and trying to remove our eemaan,,,,,,,
    Bann him,,,,

    May allaah protect us from this types of lanath,,,,,,,,,aameen,,

  21. Faisal Moaiz June 14, 2012 at 1:45 pm #

    I neither like nor dislike Ali Sina but I ask Muslims to write a rebuttal to his book ‘Understanding Muhammad and Muslims’.

  22. zainab July 2, 2012 at 8:56 pm #

    ALI SINA did not lose the debate. I also feel that the Malsi religion is outragious.

  23. Ananya January 24, 2013 at 5:08 am #

    I did read the entire debate and ask everyone, looking at a neutral perspective I see Ali SIna wins the debate.
    How ever why do muslims donot accept the same fact when you look the same from a religious point of view.

  24. Faiz Ahmed Siddiqui February 2, 2013 at 10:26 pm #

    Ali Sina is an illiterate who does not understand the Holy Quran.. Surely for you is hell, Woe to you infidel..

    1. A.L.M.

    2. This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.

    3. Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;

    4. And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.

    5. They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.

    6. As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.

    7. Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).

    8. Of the people there are some who say: “We believe in Allah and the Last Day;” but they do not (really) believe.

    9. Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realise (it) not!

    10. In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).

    11. When it is said to them: “Make not mischief on the earth,” they say: “Why, we only Want to make peace!”

    12. Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not.

    13. When it is said to them: “Believe as the others believe:” They say: “Shall we believe as the fools believe?” Nay, of a surety they are the fools, but they do not know.

    14. When they meet those who believe, they say: “We believe;” but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say: “We are really with you: We (were) only jesting.”

    15. Allah will throw back their mockery on them, and give them rope in their trespasses; so they will wander like blind ones (To and fro).

    16. These are they who have bartered Guidance for error: But their traffic is profitless, and they have lost true direction,

    17. Their similitude is that of a man who kindled a fire; when it lighted all around him, Allah took away their light and left them in utter darkness. So they could not see.

    18. Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path).

  25. kumar March 14, 2013 at 11:05 am #

    Woh nice, extraordinary malsi religion. What an idea. Thnx Ali sina.

  26. Sharbat ali Imamzadedust April 5, 2013 at 12:53 am #

    Dear moderator

    A. Sina’s fictitious religion is Malsi. Did you miss A. Sina is being ironic here?. Malsi is Islam spelled backwards. The followers of Malsi religion are called Malsians not Malaysians. Please correct your Tags Mr. Moderator.

    IMO you missed a golden opportunity, Mr. Moderator, to expose A. Sina for a scoundrel he truly is. How? You should not have deleted his “abusive and filthy ” language. Why? because what better stick to hit A. Sina with than have his words read in their entity. By deleting his entries ,Mr. Moderator, you rescued A. Sina from much deserved ridicule.

    Pssst Mr. Moderator! between you and me Jamsheed Iqbal could not make A. Sina chase all the red herrings jamsheed so carefully laid out. Therefore he unilaterally declared victory followed by quick exit leaving A. Sina the only contender standing in the ring Shadow boxing Mohammad’s brave followers..

  27. petra August 5, 2013 at 1:38 pm #

    muslims, why is it so hard for you to answer such simple question from ali sina? he only asked whether a mass murder, rapist, pedo, rober, evil (like muhammad) should be accepted as a prophet from god?
    yes or no would be enough! and you would win $50.000 from ali sina. it so simple! oh if only i was a muslim, i’d won the debate pfff

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